actaully no charles, but thanks for the concern, lol...perhaps i am a bit harsh there, but fear not, my vessels are just fine, lol. but i do have a problem with the republicans remaining silent when it was used to try to pander away votes from the other side, and only gets vocal when the bill becomes reality. i think it's very telling of a party that calls itself the "party of principle." that isn't principle to me. and it is a charge republicans typically make of others...especially in the last several years.

btw, i've been toying with the idea of going to either audio or video blogging so people can hear the tone in my voice to provide greater context. i think some read my stuff way too "sternly" in here...but that's a lot more work than just typin out some stuff when i'm at the computer anyway usually. if i can arrange the time, maybe...we'll see...i have the stuff to do it...just don't know if i have the time / energy.

oh, and btw,,,i don't drink coffee, lol. ...maybe i should start to pull off the above project, lol.

actaully no charles, but thanks for the concern, lol...perhaps i am a bit harsh there, but fear not, my vessels are just fine, lol. but i do have a problem with the republicans remaining silent when it was used to try to pander away votes from the other side, and only gets vocal when the bill becomes reality. i think it's very telling of a party that calls itself the "party of principle." that isn't principle to me. and it is a charge republicans typically make of others...especially in the last several years.

No, you have made up your mind, and regardless of what anyone says, you are going to pigeon hole them based upon your mis-conception.  There is no explaining to you as you are incapable of seeing that perhaps you are wrong about people, and that they MUST conform to your own misconceptions.  In that respect, you are like Col Gene.  You dont debate the person or what they say, you debate what you want them to say, and how you feel they should react or have reacted.  regardless of reality.

nonsesne guy. all hat, no cattle....just like the GOP has been under Bush leadership.

You'll forgive me if I am growing a tad annoyed with this constant need to defend a title that 99.9% of people don't really do anything to achieve. We were lucky enough to be born here. I have mixed feelings about immigration, and I don't think anyone has a decent answer that both works ethically and would work in reality.

But, I don't think anything is served by all this worrying about what names and titles people use. If we want to be taken seriously about immigration we need to stop all this junk about how our culture is under attack, etc., and just deal with the basic fact of immigration; why it doesn't work, what can make it work.

It isn't the 'building a wall' thing that really annoys people, it is what that wall stands for. We look down our noses at the French for all their cultural protectionist crap. Can't we just come to some conclusion about how to protect our borders and create a fair immigration system without all this nitpicking about words ideals?

Again you continue to talk about things as if the Democrats are free of error. Sean, you really need to stop waging this war against a mirror. The Democrats are no angels in this country, they have been known to ignore the wants of the people, to make bad decisions, to be corrupted, to fail to stick to the agenda they pushed during their campaigns. Wanna talk about "the party of principle"? How's about the party for the poor, last I checked a party who depends on poor people to vote for them will not really try to raise their standards of living, that would them lead them to vote Republican since they would no longer be poor. Not my kind of party where it benefits them to keep poor people poor in order to have large voting numbers.

Keep in mind that the Democrats didn't win the 2006 elections cause they were a better choice, it's because they were the only other choice.

That would seem like a great idea. I'm not sure I'd be too good at making audio or video articles, I am a bit shy in person. But you never know.

I would like to know what exactly do you mean when you say "a title that 99.9% of people don't really do anything to achieve". Further more I would also like to understand what you meant when you said "We were lucky enough to be born here".

You seem to think that the US somehow was, all this time, a great nation that created itself without the help of any humans and that somehow all of us just happen to be born here and enjoy some or most of the great things this country has to offer. Let's get one thing straight here Baker, I work hard, I work a minimum of 40 hours a week, at times I have worked 60. Day in and day out, I have paid my taxes, paid my bills, obeyed the laws, contributed to charity and have made sure my kids have a good enough education to make them better people so we can have a chance to have a better future. Compared to how other countries in the world are, yes I do consider myself lucky to have been born in this great nation, but I will not allow anyone (including you) to tell me that I somehow do not deserve to call myself an American. I may not have signed up for the Armed Forces and may not have put my life on the line to defend the freedoms we enjoy in this country, but I have no problem pointing out that is was my sweat and blood and the sweat and blood of many of those who did not sign up for the Armed Forces and put their lives on the line that paid for those uniforms, boots, training and some of the most powerful weapons ever created. It was people like me that made it possible for this country to be what it is today, even if it's not at it's greatest at the moment it's still one of the best. I am an American, whether I was born here, immigrated here and became a citizen or came on a ship from an exploding planet and the yellow sun gave me super powers. Everything I do I do it for my country and for my family.



If there was a single solution that it was both ethical and worked in reality, this would be a perfect world. I would think that by now everyone in this country would know that sometimes sacrifices have to be made and that you can't always have your cake and eat it too. I consider it stupid to allow a problem to grow simply because a solution that would satify everyone 100% can not be achieved. How can one punish a person for a crime if the punishment is seen as harsh? Hello!!! I thought the point of the punishment was to be harsh to prove a point to stop criminals from repeating themselves. You can't put someone behind bars with the intentions of taking away all the things a free man would be able to enjoy in a free country only to have all of those comforts be brought to them inside the jail.

You may not think the name thing is important, but as i have said before not everyone thinks democracy is good, not everyone thinks womens rights are good, not everyone thinks vanilla icecream is good. It is what it is; a drunk driver is not a not sober enough driver, a prostitute is not an off camera porn star and an illegal immigrant is not and undocumented American. In this world names can mean the differnec between going to jail or being able to sue, between going to jail or getting paid legally, being a criminal or just not having any documents at the moment.

If I just happen to lose my documents (birth certificate, social security card and license) due to, say, a fire, a flood or a home invasion and a a INS officer just happens to stop me because I look hispanic (since I am). Would that make me an illegal immigrant or an undocumented American? How can I prove to him I am a citizen before I get taken away?



Sure we could, in a perfect world. But again we are not perfect. OK let's see if this makes sense to you. Imagine you lived on an island with 1000 people and your island has a eco system that could maintain 3000 people for thousands of years. Outside of this island are 20 islands where 1000 people on each living but their eco systems can only maintain 600 people. Sure the first island would be nice enough to allow others from the other 20 islands to come over since they have more than enough for themselves, but they have an immigration process that only allows to have some many people over at any given time to avoid exceeding the limit of the eco system and to keep out unwanted people who could abuse the system. But imagine if they would just let everyone in without a care. Imagine all those 400 people from each of the 20 islands that exceed the limit of their island's eco system and are staving were to all move to that first island because they all think there is enough since they have more thn they need but do not consider that others from the other islands may go there as well. That would be 8000 immigrants moving to an island that only had 1000 people and could only sustain 3000 people. What do you think will happen to the people on that island?

Now imagine making it easier for immigrants from Mexico to cross into the US because we just want to be fair and share what we have. Imagine all those who think they could do better in the US cause we have a system that helps those who can't help themselves unlike their country. Imagine having possibly 3 times as many immigrants crossing the border in less than a year looking to benefit from that which those who were born here and have worked hard to earn a living or those who endured the long process, paid thousands of dollars and have been scrutinized over and over just to make sure they are really commited who have also worked hard to make a living; or even worse take the jobs from those who have them now just because they are willing to work for less since less is still a lot more than they had before. In my opinion that will be the end of our society. Something I am not willing to accept or allow.

Exactly what I said. They day you were born you were an American. All the long workweeks, etc., thereafter didn't have a thing to do it. I didn't do a thing to decide where I was born. That's what I mean by "lucky".



I didn't say you couldn't call yourself that, I simply said that you really didn't do anything to earn the title. Some people seem to think it is some label of quality or idealism that we can't allow to be watered down. In reality, prisons are full of "Americans", and someone who has worked here for ten years and contributed to their community is deemed unworthy of the title.

If I had to choose between the illegal working 12 hour days nailing shingles, and the guy sitting in jail for molesting kids, I'd rather associate the former with the label "American" than the latter. If we are going to start being picky about who uses our "brand", then we really ought to look at how much of a slipshod manner we use to hand it out, and the standards we have to keep it.

If we are going to allow people who are born here to rape, murder, steal, etc., all their lives, and then call them Americans, well, how much does the name really mean? If you guys are concerned with the devaluing of the moniker, maybe there are bigger issues to address than illegals.



And there's your problem. You act like it is charity. In reality we beg them to come here. Every other million dollar home in LA is staffed by illegals. Most of your fruit was probably picked by illegals. The roofing industry would basically cease to exist in most of the US without illegals.

So this charity stuff is bunk. If we don't like them being here, then we need to stop the people who invite them here and pay them money to be here. If we aren't willing to do that because we like our fruit and roofing jobs cheap, then we need to shut up and stop being hypocrites.

So might you.

Therein lies the problem.....neither did they. Working 12 hours a day doesn't mean a thing if they're here illegally.

Hrm, well then you'll have to explain to me what the heck it means. Ask the Emperor of Ice Cream if there aren't standards involved with getting the title as an immigrant. Yet, we call child molesters sitting in prison Americans.

To me it is one or the other. If we are going to be protectionist and bubble with pride over the word "American", then we damn well ought to apply some standards to people that are born here too. We should have to earn it as much as anyone else.

Otherwise, it seems piddly to let anyone whose baby-momma squeezed them out here have it, and then pretend we have to hold other people to some huge standard. You can say that working 12 hours a day doesn't mean a thing, but if you didn't live in a nation where people did, "American" would mean even less than it does now.

I couldn't agree more with the second sentence. But I did not ask for any American business to break laws in order to save myself some money. We all know they charge up the ying yang anyways. $.25 to make a $5 lipstick, it's all bull Baker. We don't need illegals to make things cheaper, what we need is for companies, corporations and mom and pop stores to stop taking advantage of the ignorance of the average person and their laziness to go somewhere else to shop to make high, unearned profits. If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them, Walmart brand products are proof of that.

No, we need to stop playing the victim and stop overpaying for stuff. I buy NONE of my electronics components at in town stores. Why? Because I can ALWAYS purchase better quality, better warranties, and lower prices ONLINE. So why even bother with the brick and mortar stores? If local retailers want my business, they'll need to change their marketing strategy.

And it's already worked. Walmart has significantly dropped their flash drive prices in our local stores because enough people went out and bought them online that WalMart couldn't SELL them!

No, it isn't. It's insane that we protect the idea of being "American" by making people pass tests and jump through hoops for years to become one, and then let child molesters, murderers, and rapists enjoy the status just because their momma squeezed them out here. If we really believe that you have to "earn" the title, then why don't people here have to earn it, or at least keep to a standard of humanity?

No, they do not have to "earn" it. Except one way. Obeying the laws of the nation they want to become citizens in. After all, the ones you describe - when caught, are put in jail for their crimes.

So for this whole argument, it comes down to 2 things. One, is that not all 12 million want to be citizens. And 2 is that those 12 million broke the law.

is it fair? Hardly. Life is not fair.

But no matter how much your heart bleeds, there is another truism that is inescapable. The USA cannot take in every person in the world who wants to live here - and survive as a nation. There must be a method of deciding who can and who cannot come into this country, and that decision will be made by man, and therefore imperfect and unfair.