I would not want currency to display the sentence "There is no G-d" and I can understand why those who believe in no god or others gods don't care about reading "In G-d we trust" on bank notes.

If the US were an atheist state, I would understand the first sentence and accept it.

If the US were a Christian state, I would understand the second sentence and accept it.

But the US is supposed to be a state that promotes no particular religion, not atheism, not Christianity, not Judaism, and not Islam.

(I think the US government should only be used to fight Jedis.)

Said the ancient Jedis of the west: "May the horse be with you."

You mentioned to KFC that because it says "freedom of religion" it would logically mean "from religion" as well.

Why not put that into actual writing?  You overestimate American citizans as a whole.  In terms of society, people believe what they read, see, hear, and don't try to add logic to it, so perhaps that would add a little clarity to this whole mess.

While this is true, a lack of religion promotes atheism, does it not?  At least, that is how the religious will see it.

A lack of a (national) religion doesn't necessarily promote atheism. I would think it promotes the freedom to search and choose what fits you best. Of course they would; no offense KFC, but that's their mentality - any negative opinion of Christianity, any sort of desire to not have it in the government - is atheist's work, etc.

That's what I was thinking she meant, but figured I should ask instead of assuming. I really try not to look like an arse, but I have my moments.

My bottom line with the whole Religion v. Secularism is this:

I'm annoyed by certain Christian's* assertion of persecution. They seem to think that they don't deserve to have any negative action or opinion against them. How do you think we atheists/agnostics feel when we get lambasted to high heaven? (No pun intended) I'm really tired of the stares and smirks I get when I try to be open and honest about my lack of faith.

I have nothing against Christianity or all religious practitioners, I just have something against some of those who practice it and espectially the smug prententiousness that some practice it with; they seem the think that they should get special treatment. Excuse me? Uh, not going there.

Religion should not have a holy place (no pun intended) in our society. Those people seem to forget that this nation has more than just Theists or Deists, and the tolerance they profess is scarce in action. Loving Christian? Tolerant Christian? Give me a break; are you really loving of the Atheists (or homosexuals, or pagans, or...) that you push back and bog down because you think what they are is immoral? Who are you to assign your faith's morals to others? Are you tolerant of other people? Very little in my experience. Sorry, but you don't own morals.

Likewise, don't tell me that our founders wanted to make us a Christian nation when clearly their words, along with their subsequent actions prove otherwise. That's just wrong, and that's a lie in my book, along with factual misrepresentation. (I get worked up to no end with people misrepresenting facts.)

Am I bitter? No, not really. Am I angry? Yes, very much so, because I am sick and tired of seeing good, nay, great people - honest, compassionate, charismatic, loving people -who happen to be atheist, agnostic, homosexual, or just plain different - get treated essentially like less of a human.

It's wrong, just plain wrong.

Yes, practice your faith - believe in your God. That's all well and good, but take the friggin' tree out of your eye before you go about castigating and suppressing others.

That's my issue. Again, please note my disclaimers and emphasis. I've this problem with some, not all religious folks. Also, if you could forgive me a bit - I'm extremely passionate about this, so I come across a tad extreme. Really, I'm a mellow guy.

If only we all could pull our heads out of our personal black hole - things may...may just start getting clearer. I consitantly hope for clarity, wisdom and intelligence. I believe those are the key to solving this problem.

* I use the label Christian in a vague, in general sense because of the majority in the US and since we're talking about the US; It can be applied to any faith really.

yes it should be removed. sure it doesn't specificy WHICH god... but it does specify A GOD. mother nature or evolution or darwin or "a rock or a tree" (to quote the alcoholics annonymous) is not worshipped by atheists, they worship no one. And it does imply the christian god, but honestly, who cares, its a backwards primitive thing that should not be on currency or pledge of alligience.

No. Saying that no god exists promotes atheism. Making no statement whatsoever about gods doesn't promote anything.

I don't know whom you consider religious, but I go to synagogue every week, observe most holidays to some extend, regularly travel to Jerusalem, and read the Bible a lot; and I don't see it that way.

But I don't consider myself religious. Perhaps you mean that those who consider themselves religious might see it that way. I think those people often have something to prove to themselves.

Yes, that is what I mean.  There is a difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious'.

I wouldn't call myself spiritual or religious.

no offense taken but you are right.  Christ said you are either for me or against me.  That's all there is to it.  Anti- means "against" or "in place of." 

sounds like you haven't met any Christians.  You said your mother is a Christian.  Does she do these things you're accusing Christians as doing?  The Christians I know don't do these things.  Do you know the diff between being tolerant of people and tolerating sin?  We can separate the two.  A Christian can love the sinner and not the sin.  We are always to fight what is evil and wrong but we are always to love the sinner and treat them as a creation of God. Jesus always said "go and sin no more."  He addressed sin when he saw it.  We are not suppose to tolerate sin and as our laws are going in that direction, yes we are going to fight these laws on moral biblical grounds.  It's the laws we're against, not the people.  Know the difference. 

are you saying I'm misrepresenting the facts?  What have you brought to the table?  We have gads of evidence against what you are saying here and I supplied you with just a hint earlier.  You don't have a leg to stand on here.  It's taken since the 1960's to get rid of the Christian influence we've had in this nation since its inception and we're still at work de-Christianizing this country.  The words on our money and the scriptures all over our national treasures and monuments and the prayer in our Senate is about all that's left right now.  Soon that will be gone as well.  You're getting worked up because deep down you know you're wrong and you cannot articulate it and that's what's making you angry.  If you were right, you wouldn't be angry. 

where did you get that saying?  I'll tell you.  From Christ himself. 

and you are asumming or judging the Christians as a group by saying they are doing this.  So you need to take that log out of your eye.   I'm going to tell you right now....if you call yourself a Christian and you treat some human being as less human than you're either NOT a Christian or a very very weak one; a baby Christian who knows no better.    Christ said "the world will know you by your love you have for each other."  He also said to "love and to good to your enemies." 

See that's how Satan works.  He puts pseudo Christians (tares) out there among the  wheat and until the harvest many can't recognize what is what.  Just like when I weed a garden before the vegetable plants get too big I don't know what is weed or what is going to be a vegtable plant.  Don't fall for this trick. 

and that sounds great in theory but it's not going to happen.  The reason?  Pride.  That's what I'm trying to say....from a Christian perspective (genuine) it's all about being "other minded" not self-minded.  For instance.....think about Adam and Eve.  Everything was great; hunky dory until they sinned.  Up until that point they didn't even recognize their own nakedness.  Why?  because their focus was not on themselves.  It was on God.  As soon as they sinned they looked within and at each other.  Focus changed.

Only when our focus changes can we get out of that black hole you're speaking of.  If we're not worshipping God, we are worshipping self...and Alderic you pretty much said this yourself earlier when you said you rely on your own intelligence and achievements.  Right? 

from what I see and my experiences over the years, the majority are in Christian name only.  The real deep down committed Christians are alot fewer than you think.  Some are just political for political sake.  Some are just Christian in name because of heritage or habit.  Some for business reasons; how it looks etc.  In every church I've ever been to, there's a much smaller remnant of true bible believing Christians.  The rest are either lukewarm or cold all together. 

Does a deep down committed Christian require government to support the religion?

I think it probably does.  The bible tells us that "bad company corrupts good character." 

So if, from God's perspective, all those that learn about him enough to follow him are considered "good" then it would stand to reason that those who turn their back on god and promote another way would be considered "bad" then not having "religion" would in a way promote atheism. 

If one "bad apple" corrupts a whole barrel then what would a whole country of "bad apples" (relative term) do? 

All thru the OT God forbid the Hebrews to marry outside of their heritage.  It had nothing to do with their physical heritage but all to do with the spiritual.  The other nationalities were worshipping many false gods and God did not want his people corrupted because eventually they would all turn and follow them. 

In the NT as well, we as Christians are told not to marry outside the faith (not denomination).  In other words Christians are to mary other believers.  This is called being equally yoked spiritually.  When we don't do this we usually fall into all sorts of troubles later on in our marriages and the house is divided against God. 

no. 

That's logical fallacy, and silly to boot.

I do know the difference of tolerating people and tolerating the sin, but if you love the person and tolerate the person...then why do these so called Christians do what they do? It just doesn't make sense to me.By going against the law you go against the people, because to them, the law is them. It's all about what they are, and who they are.

Actually I got it from Theodore Adomo and his book Minima Moralia.

I'm saying either A) Certain Christians misrepresent the facts. -OR- People in general have problems with understanding and interpreting words and actions.

I mean look at it, John Adams - by far a man known for his faith - signed a treaty confirming and made a statement confirming the secularism of the government (if not the nation). They weren't religiouis, so much as they had a belief system and based it soley on reason and logic, not faith. That's what a Deist is.

Additionally, by your comments - it is entirely reasonable to question the so claimed Christianity of America. Are these people who claim Christianity, true Christians? Or do they just check a box randomly?

I'm not angry, so much as I'm annoyed by the grasping at straws most folks end up doing. The evidence is there, the logic is there. Now if only religious folk will just keep to themselves and non religious would keep to themselves, i.e. live and let live - the world would be cherry pie. *le sigh* But it's a idealistic dream.

I just want to see my friends (homosexual friends) be happy, and unfortunately, because of your kind, they can't be.They can't marry who they love because of what your kind believes in. I'm sorry, but that's just wrong.

Nope, I don't worship myself; I rely on myself. There's a difference in having confidence in what I do, as well as relying on myself and what not. For the record, I've always put others in front of myself. I wouldn't call that egoism.

~Alderic

S & J TEARS POSTS #1

True.

Besides on our currency, "In God we trust" is in our national anthem, The Star Spangled Banner" and is our national motto.

Given all the other references to God, ie. the Declaration of Independence, references to the Creator, the carvings, symbols and images in national buildings including the Ten Commandments, it seems obvious, at least it does to me, that the word "God" in the motto, "In God we trust" means the one God, the Supreme, Self-existent, Eternal Spirit. The Christian God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Who designed, created, and rules the universe and all that's in it, including mankind.

Christians hold God to be the Maker of the laws that are manifest in nature and the moral law that man is obliged to obey. God is the beginning and the end for whom mankind was created. By God, Christians, mean the Eternal Creator from whom emanated certain inalienable rights with which the nature of man is endowed as our Declaration of Independence avers.

So, America's faith in God is seen in her motto "In God we Trust" , in Francis Scott Key's anthem, and ever since the 1800s, also stamped on her currency.

IF some, mostly atheists, have their way, every reference, every mention, no matter how slight, of the Judeo-Christian God will be removed from government and public life.